Second shooter rights...
Saturday ~ March 03, 2010
I’ve been offered a gig as second shooter by a local wedding Pro, and I’m flattered to have been given the opportunity… This Pro however, has informed me that I would be required to sign a release giving her all rights to my images.
I can understand signing a provisional release, allowing the studio to sell the reprints of those images. But signing away all s?? Is this common practice? By signing such a document, I wouldn’t even be able to use the images in my own portfolio (if I understand the law correctly).
Your thoughts and comments are much appreciated.
If it's just chump change, then laugh at him. If it's like $500 then take the money and invest in some advertising for you own wedding photography.
Then become better than him. Then take over the world.
Heh heh.... I'm the culprit.
Brandon, you can use whatever you shoot for me to promote yourself. I'm all for that. That's why I send you the ones I can't do myself.
I do, however, need to have the ability to sell anything you shoot when working with me.
For everyone else... we have nothing in writing, just a gentleman's agreement. And, regretfully, I can't pay a BUNCH for his help. I'm greatful for his help, and enjoy sharing what I do with him. Plus, I get the benfit of his perspective... a fresh look.
Pete
*edit* Jon beat me to it.... :D
I love the idea of a word and a handshake, but these days, I think it's kind of dangerous. I doubt this will change your mind, but for anyone else reading, I highly recommend having written contracts, even between best friends. Plus things can get really sticky if you need to pass rights on to anyone else, like one-time publication.
You are likely correct with that decision, but man… I have serious second thoughts.
Please… More input from members of the forum…
I’m a bit leery of not getting something on paper that guarantees my right to use my images in a portfolio… If this ‘pro’ wants me as second shooter, she’ll have to abide by my wishes, or find someone else.
My reason for sounding a bit militant on this issue is because a wedding videographer burned me recently. I had a “handshake agreement” with this individual; he used my stills in his video, but refused to return the disc of image files for my portfolio! He said the images were entirely his property since I was his employee. I was most certainly NOT his employee, and was in fact only doing him a favor by providing stills for this particular video. My blood boils just thinking about it…
I agree that some valuable experience could be gained by working with a ‘pro’, but I’m thinking that a studio that would refuse this simple request is one that I would rather not have a business association with.
I'll contact the 'pro' and tell her I'll sign away my with the provision that I be allowed to use the images in my portfolio.
I agree with the others, there should be no reason why the 'pro' wouldn't say yes to you using your photo's in your portfolio, and if they say no and you feel strongly about it you can politely decline their offer. Asking still sounds very different to telling if it's their gig.
Er, in reference to your post above, it implies that you gave away your only copies of images you had taken? Surely not!
If you had no agreement at all you are entitled to do whatever you want with your images. If he came up to you and asked you to take stills for his video and you received something in return for that with no written agreement it's shakey ground for all concerned. I'd write more but rights are covered better in other threads and elsewhere I'm sure.
Surely YES! Stupidly, I burned the images to disc and then formatted the CF card, thinking that the disc would be returned. Yes, I am a moron. …sigh…
If it's just chump change, then laugh at him. If it's like $500 then take the money and invest in some advertising for you own wedding photography.
Then become better than him. Then take over the world.
If it's really important to you, I'd consult a lawyer.
I came very close to taking legal action… My attorney was prepared to take the videographer to court over this matter, but I backed out. Reason? Said videographer is the son of a co-worker. Taking this a##hole to court would have made for a very uncomfortable work relationship with his father. It’s a long and convoluted story…
Many thanks to all that have responded in this thread! TPF is a fantastic forum!
This finally sunk in. Thanks so much for the nice words!
Pete
2. What do you plan to gain from doing this gig? Images for your portfolio, the experience, the small change, bit of everything? I would give more weight to the experience part. Observe her, see how she handles the crowd, how she shoots, how she handles the situation when Mr. Murphy shows up etc etc.
Good luck and have fun!! :thumbsup:
Sorry... I was responding to Brandon's (Clark Kent) post.
Pete
But know that by letting you use your images for the portfolio, they are doing you a favour. They are hiring you for the wedding they booked. Remember, you did not do the sales pitch to the actual client (the couple), you did not promote the business, you don't have to care if you got all the 'must have' shots. You just have to show up one fine morning and shoot to your heart's content without second thoughts, which is actually fun :), but they hold the reins.
You're not a moron, because you will NEVER forget the incident and get done like that again. Small business is all about surviving for the start up and then building on your successes and learning from mistakes. Besides, you have to believe in the old circular theory - what goes around... comes around. He'll get his dues sure enough.
For the second shooter thing, I think the experts here have covered things well. You don't know everything yet, so you'll surely learn valuable tips and tricks from the day. I think a short note to the effect of "I agree to allow
Good luck with your assignment, and do let us all know how it went!
Rob
http://danheller.blogspot.com/2005/04/work-for-hire-contracts-when-theyre.html
http://www.nppa.org/professional_development/self-training_resources/legacy_report/questions.html
I think the second one applies to your videographer situation. Unless he had you sign a contract stating otherwise, you have the rights. Now, that doesn't mean you can force him to give you the disk. You have to prove that it's your property and only loaned it to him, which is a separate issue. If it's really important to you, I'd consult a lawyer.
